{"id":28600,"date":"2026-08-26T08:43:39","date_gmt":"2026-08-26T06:43:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/evolute-institute.com\/?p=28600"},"modified":"2026-08-26T12:30:06","modified_gmt":"2026-08-26T10:30:06","slug":"christopher-bache","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/evolute-institute.com\/fr\/inner-pioneers-podcast\/christopher-bache\/","title":{"rendered":"Christopher Bache"},"content":{"rendered":"\t\t<div data-elementor-type=\"wp-post\" data-elementor-id=\"28600\" class=\"elementor elementor-28600\" data-elementor-post-type=\"post\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-a28b070 e-flex e-con-boxed e-con e-parent\" data-id=\"a28b070\" data-element_type=\"container\" data-e-type=\"container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"e-con-inner\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-0e64607 elementor-widget elementor-widget-html\" data-id=\"0e64607\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-e-type=\"widget\" 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{\n      .evo-ep-hero-v5 { padding: 80px 20px; }\n      .evo-wrapper { grid-template-columns: 1fr; gap: 60px; }\n      .evo-content { align-items: center; text-align: center; padding-left: 0; }\n      .evo-editorial-meta { justify-content: center; }\n      .evo-title-group h1 { font-size: 3.2rem; }\n      .evo-conversation-context {\n        border-left: none;\n        padding-left: 0;\n        margin-top: 24px;\n        align-items: center;\n        border-top: 1px solid rgba(235, 191, 113, 0.3);\n        padding-top: 20px;\n      }\n      .evo-subtitle { max-width: 100%; }\n      .evo-topics-editorial { justify-content: center; padding-top: 32px; }\n      .evo-topic-label { width: 100%; margin-right: 0; margin-bottom: 12px; }\n      .evo-action-area { align-items: center; }\n      .evo-btn-group { justify-content: center; }\n      .evo-media { justify-content: center; }\n    }\n  <\/style>\n\n  <div class=\"evo-wrapper\">\n\n    <div class=\"evo-content\">\n\n      <div class=\"evo-editorial-meta\">\n        <span class=\"evo-meta-highlight\">\n          <span class=\"evo-dot\"><\/span> Episode S1E10\n        <\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-meta-text\">26.08.2026<\/span>\n      <\/div>\n\n      <div class=\"evo-title-group\">\n        <h1>Christopher Bache<\/h1>\n\n        <div class=\"evo-conversation-context\">\n          <span class=\"evo-context-label\">In Conversation About<\/span>\n          <p class=\"evo-subtitle\">Philosophy Professor Christopher Bache: The Cosmology that Emerges in Deep Psychedelic States<\/p>\n        <\/div>\n      <\/div>\n\n      <div class=\"evo-topics-editorial\">\n        <span class=\"evo-topic-label\">Topics \u23e4<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-topic\">Psychedelics<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-topic\">Consciousness<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-topic\">Cosmology<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-topic\">Transpersonal<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-topic\">Reincarnation<\/span>\n        <span 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Notes<\/label>\n  <label for=\"evo-tab2\" class=\"evo-tab-label\">Timestamps<\/label>\n  <label for=\"evo-tab3\" class=\"evo-tab-label\">Transcript<\/label>\n<\/div>\n\n<div class=\"evo-tab-body\">\n\n  <!-- \u2550\u2550\u2550 TAB 1: SHOW NOTES \u2550\u2550\u2550 -->\n  <div class=\"evo-tab-panel\" id=\"evo-panel1\">\n\n    <h2 class=\"evo-panel-title\">Episode Summary<\/h2>\n\n    <p class=\"evo-panel-body\">\n      Over 20 years and 73 high-dose LSD sessions, philosopher Christopher Bache systematically explored consciousness - to understand the deep structure of reality. What began as personal karmic work rapidly expanded into encounters with collective mind, archetypal reality, causal oneness, and finally the shattering clarity of diamond luminosity.\n    <\/p>\n    <p class=\"evo-panel-body\">\n      These experiences, cross-validated against mystical traditions and cutting-edge consciousness science, produced a coherent cosmology in which the universe is a participatory, living intelligence. Christopher Bache argues we are now at the threshold where humanity must awaken into soul consciousness - not to escape the world, but to transform it.\n    <\/p>\n\n    <div class=\"evo-meta-block\">\n      <p class=\"evo-meta-title\">Resources Mentioned<\/p>\n      <ul class=\"evo-link-grid\">\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.chrisbache.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Website \u2014 Christopher Bache<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/44321378-lsd-and-the-mind-of-the-universe\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 LSD and the Mind of the Universe by Christopher Bache<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/152440.Dark_Night_Early_Dawn\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 Dark Night, Early Dawn by Christopher Bache<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/3076419-the-living-classroom\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 The Living Classroom by Christopher Bache (new edition, SUNY Press)<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/profile\/Christopher-Bache\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Publications \u2014 Christopher Bache<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/en\/book\/show\/196573.Realms_of_the_Human_Unconscious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 Realms of the Human Unconscious by Stanislav Grof<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/196577.Beyond_the_Brain\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 Beyond the Brain by Stanislav Grof<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/en\/book\/show\/966403.Revisioning_Transpersonal_Theory_\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 Revisioning Transpersonal Theory by Jorge Ferrer<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/medium.com\/@cmbache\/are-deep-psychedelic-experiences-trustable-an-exchange-between-ken-ring-and-chris-bache-e5b06fa95d0a\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Article \u2014 Are Deep Psychedelic Experiences Trustable? by Bache &amp; Ring (Medium)<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.essentiafoundation.org\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Website \u2014 Essentia Foundation (Bernardo Kastrup)<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/247738298-a-world-appears\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Book \u2014 A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness by Michael Pollan<\/a><\/li>\n      <\/ul>\n    <\/div>\n\n    <div class=\"evo-meta-block\">\n      <p class=\"evo-meta-title\">People Mentioned<\/p>\n      <ul class=\"evo-link-grid\">\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Ian_Stevenson\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Ian Stevenson \u2014 pioneer of reincarnation research, University of Virginia<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/kenring.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Kenneth Ring \u2014 near-death experience researcher, co-founder of IANDS<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.kenwilber.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Ken Wilber \u2014 integral philosopher<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/jorgenferrer.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Jorge Ferrer \u2014 transpersonal theorist, author of Revisioning Transpersonal Theory<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.sheldrake.org\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rupert Sheldrake \u2014 biologist, morphic resonance theorist<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iainmcgilchrist.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Iain McGilchrist \u2014 psychiatrist, author of The Master and His Emissary<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bernardokastrup.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Bernardo Kastrup \u2014 philosopher and idealist thinker, Essentia Foundation<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Federico_Faggin\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Federico Faggin \u2014 physicist, inventor of the microprocessor, consciousness researcher<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/ervinlaszlo.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Ervin L\u00e1szl\u00f3 \u2014 systems theorist and consciousness researcher<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/michaelpollan.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Michael Pollan \u2014 author of How to Change Your Mind<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/David_Chalmers\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">David Chalmers \u2014 philosopher, \"the hard problem of consciousness\"<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Plotinus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Plotinus \u2014 Neoplatonic philosopher<\/a><\/li>\n        <li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Carl_Ruck\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Karl (Carl) Ruck \u2014 classical scholar who coined the term \"entheogen\"<\/a><\/li>\n      <\/ul>\n    <\/div>\n\n  <\/div>\n\n  <!-- \u2550\u2550\u2550 TAB 2: TIMESTAMPS \u2550\u2550\u2550 -->\n  <div class=\"evo-tab-panel\" id=\"evo-panel2\">\n\n    <label for=\"mob-toggle2\"><h2 class=\"evo-panel-title\">Episode Timestamps<\/h2><\/label>\n    <div class=\"evo-timestamps\">\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=0s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">00:00<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Introductions & Why Bache Risked Everything to Explore Consciousness<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=1979s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">32:59<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What If Psychedelics Show You a More Real Reality?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2084s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">34:44<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Why Your Experience Can Be Real Even If Science Can\u2019t Measure It<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2132s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">35:32<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Worldview You Don\u2019t Realise You\u2019re Living Inside<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2196s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">36:36<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Why Science Is Moving Beyond Materialism<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2279s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">37:59<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What If Your Brain Doesn\u2019t Create Consciousness?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2373s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">39:33<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Reality Behind the Reality You See<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2450s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">40:50<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">You\u2019re Not Just Observing Reality - You\u2019re Shaping It<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2538s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">42:18<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What If Consciousness Helps Create What You Experience?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2677s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">44:37<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Deeper You Go, the More Reality Opens Up<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=2951s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">49:11<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Five Levels Bache Says Consciousness Can Move Through<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=3187s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">53:07<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What Comes After Oneness?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=3399s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">56:39<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Bache Reached the \u201cEnd\u201d - Then Something Else Appeared<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=3503s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">58:23<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Psychedelic Advice Bache Wishes He\u2019d Had Earlier<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=4009s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:06:49<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Peak Experiences - And What Actually Changes You<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=4366s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:12:46<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What If Death Is Not The End?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=4663s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:17:43<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Are We Growing Into a New Kind of Human?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=4938s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:22:18<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Cosmos Is Alive<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=5192s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:26:32<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What Your Children Teach You About Being a Profound Person<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=5366s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:29:26<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">Are Science and Spirituality Moving Toward the Same Truth?<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=5556s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:32:36<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">What Psychedelic Really Reveal<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n      <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=uNx9oC6RYSg&t=5707s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" class=\"evo-ts-row\">\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-time\">01:35:07<\/span>\n        <span class=\"evo-ts-label\">The Question Bache Could Never Stop Exploring<\/span>\n      <\/a>\n    <\/div>\n\n  <\/div>\n\n  <!-- \u2550\u2550\u2550 TAB 3: TRANSCRIPT \u2550\u2550\u2550 -->\n  <div class=\"evo-tab-panel\" id=\"evo-panel3\">\n\n    <label for=\"mob-toggle3\"><h2 class=\"evo-panel-title\">Full Transcript<\/h2><\/label>\n    <div class=\"evo-transcript\">\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (00:00)<\/strong> I don't think I'll be finished integrating these sessions for the rest of my life. I think I will die with them incompletely integrated and because I think these sessions give me have given such deep access to dimensions of reality that it'll be multiple lifetimes. Before I can really say, I I really have integrated them. In fact, in I am now, I can't even imagine what integrating some of the more radical experiences would look like. When you transcend time, when you go into what I call deep time, just large swaths of thousands and thousands of years, when you radically transcend the limits of your physical body and enter into the body of humanity for hours at a time. How do you truly integrate those experiences back into your finite present body, into your limited spatial body? How do you integrate infinite time, infinite space into your personal existence?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:09)<\/strong> You're listening to Inner Pioneers, a podcast for curious minds who want to understand how to navigate change, crises, or simply the call for something new. Join us as we dive into real stories of transformation and learn from leading voices in psychology, science, and human development how to move through inner shifts and seasons of change. I'm Christopher Kabakis, and now let's begin pioneering.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:36)<\/strong> Hello everybody. Today it is my great pleasure to welcome Christopher Bache with us. Christopher, you are a former professor, Professor Emeritus at Youngstown University in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies. You are our a teacher, a passionate teacher. And you are also the author of numerous books. And the most famous, maybe, of them. I don't know, this one, LSD and the Mind of the Universe, Diamonds from Heaven. and in this book you share what you experienced when you embarked on a very intense 20-year journey of high-dose LSD experiences. So from nineteen seventy-nine to nineteen ninety-nine, you undertook 73 high dose LSD experiences with Around 500 microgram of LSD. So a very high dosage. And when we spoke before you we were in contact before, you said I don't want to talk so much about the personal dimension of the psychedelic experience, but much more about the transpersonal experience and the cosmology that emerges in deep psychedelic experiences. and So I I think you are a true psychonaut, a true inner pioneer, and you have gone where most people haven't gone before in their inner exploration. And so I'm very much looking forward to exploring what you encountered there and what it means and what the implications are for for us today. So welcome, Christopher.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (03:07)<\/strong> Thank you, Christopher. Glad to be here with you.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (03:10)<\/strong> Thank you. So my first question would be so you have been exploring consciousness for for decades, right? Which questions are kind of unfinished or still very much alive in you today?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (03:23)<\/strong> Well, I guess those would really be integration. It's the process of internalizing, holding on to, learning how to let these experiences saturate your life, changing your life to live in accord with those experiences. I don't have any ambitions to explore further dimensions of consciousness. I've explored more than enough for one lifetime. And I'm particularly interested in the transpersonal cosmological aspects of these experiences because I was trained as a philosopher of religion. I'm not a clinician, I'm not a therapist. I'm I'm much of the work done in the Renaissance today is really therapeutically focused. But I come to this medicine as a philosopher. I was interested in understanding the deep structure of reality. And that's where my focus has been. And I I had enough experiences to really satisfy that yearning. But I have found that the process of deeply internalizing and making the adjustments in one's personal life to absorb and mediate these experiences into time and space to be a longer, more drawn out process than I had initially thought. And so that's where my focus is right now.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (04:39)<\/strong> Integration, we also always emphasize the importance of integration. so what I heard when you spoke now was in a way, our experiences generally change who we are, right? when we embark on deep experiences, or just have deep experiences, any kind of experience, it changes who we are. So we become someone else. And this is a very interesting process, Maybe some people might experience then that they outgrow their old lives in a way they have changed internally, maybe they have more inner capacity or however they want to think about it. And it that also necessitates a change in your outer living conditions or so on. Is that something that also is is happening or is still happening 25 years after you stopped your High those L S D experiences.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (05:29)<\/strong> Yeah. Well, it's interesting. partly because I had to do this work in secret in order to be able to do it. I was working at a state institution. What I was and I was working at a time when doing the work I did was illegal. I had to keep all this private and under wraps. And therefore I had to metabolize my experiences in a way which didn't manifest overtly in any dramatic way. Then some people, when they have dramatic experiences, they change their lifestyle, they change their clothes, they change their persona. but that just wasn't my way. I kind of kept all the outside the same. and I let the metabolism change my inner condition, my inner being, which of course gradually seeps through to your persona in the world, but much more inwardly focused in in the work. But of course, it does change you. And I guess for me it changed. I mean I'm a I'm a professor, I'm a teacher. I love to teach. I love to get with people. I love to learn things. I love to share my learning. I love to engage in that dialogue and that conversation. All of that has stayed the same in my life. What's changed is what I want to talk about. what you know the conversation. So since I retired, And I mean, I always taught about psychedelics in my courses, but I never owned my psychedelic experience. Now that I've retired, I can own my psychedelic experience and that becomes a different conversation. It's not that I think my psychedelic experiences are special or in any way unique, but when you're speaking out of an autobiographical stance, it's different than when you're speaking out of a secondary intellectual stance. And that's the kind of conversation I'm want to have now. It's like a second career. And in that sense, my life has changed in that way. I'm able to have conversations I couldn't have before.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (07:22)<\/strong> And I remember I had to not laugh. I had to I was amused and touched when you said that you were in the psychedelic closet and in a way for many, many years and you had your coming out then only after you retired from from being an active professor, right, at at the university. and that for a long time you had to hide the truth of your being or an important truth of your being, right? And of course it speaks to everyone who was in a closet. like me, I was in a closet, like r with with regards to my sexual orientation for for my youth. So I I can relate very much to this tension of knowing something or feeling something that you cannot share with the outside world and that you have to hold back. And that creates like I also<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (08:09)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (08:09)<\/strong> I think you you wrote about this a sense of isolation also and and alienation, maybe. And it has been a long journey integrate as you say. And now you just shared it's still ongoing your integration journey and it changes<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (08:21)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. Well in order to do this work I had to divide myself in half. So I was a professor and by day and and I was a psychonaut by night, so to speak. And when you make those divisions, this has been one of the biggest surprises in my journey. I didn't I underestimated how difficult managing that division would be, how lonely making it would be. because when you are in a psychedelic phobic culture like our culture was in these years. you just can't there's n you can't share these experiences. So the deepest experiences of your life, you can't make them part of your social dialogue. And so it causes you to sort of step back and you can relate to people at one level and your neighbors and your friends, but you can't relate to them at another level because this is not a choice that they've made. Until later when when I was more identified with my work and becoming more public with my work, I was able to meet other people who had also undertaken this work or who were interested in the subject matter who may not have done any psychedelics at all. And then you know, suppose then a conversation can take place. And so for me, writing \"LSD in the mind of the book universe\", ear my earlier book, \"Dark Night Early Dawn\", but then this book especially, was the beginning of putting back together The two halves of my life which have separated so that I I could finish my life as the whole as a whole person with all my beings, all my parts in place.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (09:54)<\/strong> Mm. Yeah, nice. finding back to wholeness and and integrity, so to maybe give a bit of context, when you started out, you said you adopted a therapeutic protocol By Stan Grof but then you didn't use it for therapy so much, or it developed into something that it was very different, like cosmic exploration, right? how did you get to that? you were teaching in university, you had three kids. you had you had your wife Carol at the time, who was also your sitter. So sitting with you during the experiences, right? you had a a busy life, stable life obligations and so on. And as you said, by night I was a psychonaut, but it was basically every two or three months, right? You would embark on such an experience. So five or so per year, five to six, right? But how did it all start? why did you come to psychedelics in the first place from your background and upbringing?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (10:47)<\/strong> Well, I guess if you go back far enough, my first natural inclination in life was to become a Catholic priest. And I was in the seminary for three years of high school and one year of college. and then I decided that celibacy was not made for me or I wasn't made for celibacy and I left. But I always had the sort of desire to learn and to serve with this learning, and I had a spiritual orientation. And so I I did my master's and I did my PhD and I just finished my graduate work in philosophy of religion from Brown University, and I finished all those years of study as a atheistically inclined agnostic. I I'd written my dissertation on the what philosophers call the problem of of God predicates. How can we speak meaningfully of a divine with finite language? And the conclusion I came to after studying metaphor as a model for this was you can't. You cannot speak using a finite language, you cannot speak accurately of of an infinite being because we lose control of the meaning of our language before it reaches its target. so that was a you know, I I basically studied my way out of religion altogether, out of spirituality, became an agnostic, and then my first year of teaching. And I was finishing t publishing some articles for my dissertation. I met Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia, his work, which convinced me that reincarnation was true. He's the specialist in bringing him forward the empirical evidence for reincarnation. And that changed my life deeply. I had to erase my intellectual blackboard and start all over again. But I also met Stan Grof's work. I read his book, \"Realms of the Human Unconscious\". Now, this was 1978. He had just published his first book. And in one reading, I I recognize the philosophical significance of what he was saying. He was presenting us with a protocol through which we could personally explore deep states of consciousness in a rhythmic, socially verifiable protocol. he had been doing it for 20 years at that time. He had a massive database, he had a fine mind and was integrating large volumes of psychological and philosophical and scientific thought as an academic. It it was just convincing. And I immediately I felt a calling and I knew that this was something I wanted to do. And I thought this was the most productive thing that I could do as a philosopher of religion in my discipline was to explore the potential of these non-ordinary states to bring us insight into the nature of our lived experience. So I began that work. And I began with a model of of transformation which was pretty standard at that time. It's a model of personal transformation. So you do this work to heal your person or to enlighten your person or to have you know to basically clean out your karmic basket and become enlightened or to become clear. but it's personal, it's a personal journey. And so I thought Stan had articulated two protocols, low-dose psycholytic work, high-dose psychedelic work. High dose psychedelic work was largely restricted to three sessions at Spring Grove Hospital in Baltimore. And I thought, well, if you could do high dose work and if you could manage the intensity of it, you could do it safely more than three times. So I thought, since karma is ultimately finite, one's all one's former life conditioning. I thought if I did high dose psychedelic therapy work, I could basically eat my karma in fewer bites. I would just take bigger bites and clean up faster.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (14:39)<\/strong> Eat your karma and have it too. Yeah. Yes, okay.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (14:41)<\/strong> Yeah. Well what I found is that I this was a wrong assumption, that the personal model is is fine at a certain level if you're working with certain levels. But when you amplify consciousness radically, like you do with a a high dose of LSD, you activate dimensions of consciousness which far transcend the personal dimensions of mind. Because existence is unified from the very start. It doesn't become unified when you become aware of it. It's unified from the start. When you hyper-energize and hyper amplify consciousness, you activate a field, including during the purification process, you activate a field which is bigger than your personal karma. You activate fields of collective karma, collective dynamics. And so it just radically expanded the And it took me a long time to understand. It took me years before I could drop this model of personal transformation and exchange it for a model of collective transformation. And by the time I had made that transition, I I found that I I had developed an aptitude and a capacity to work at these very high dose levels, and they were taking me where I wanted to go. They were taking me deeper and deeper and deeper into the universe. And it was only late in the journey or after I stopped my work, that I began to be more appreciative of some of the wear and tear that this intense protocol exacted. the wear and tear generated by its success, not by its its any problems with it, it's the very success of going so deep, which became problematic in a way we we might talk about. But That's that's how I got into it. Just it was a philosophical challenge. And I thought that his work showed us that psychedelics represented a turning point in philosophy because here was a methodology systematically going into a non ordinary state, coming back and digesting it, discussing it, sharing other people's experiences, going out, coming back. This was a new methodology. I mean new in the West. old in indigenous cultures, but new in the West, and a new academic in academic circles, a totally new methodology. So I wanted to I wanted to get in on the ground floor, so to speak.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (17:07)<\/strong> Yes, I there's so many things in there I I could can relate to, and I have a deep resonance with this because I I was always interested in this question of consciousness and psychological and philosophical questions, but ended up studying business, I'm very much far away from from from these questions. but whenever I had the time, and I did some PhD level studies in Montreal and For two years. And there I took like classes in ontology, epistemology, and humanities. And the questions that surfaced there, I also tried at the beginning to answer them with language, right? I mean, in academia, you work with language, and you've I tried to find the truth by, for example, understanding emotions by reading about emotions. until my my roommate at the time was he was laughing at me, he was like, Christopher. You're reading the handbook of emotions, okay? trying to find emotions. But I mean you're missing that they are not there. They're not in the in the book, in the language. But somehow I was intellectually inclined and curious and I wanted to learn, and so I I was looking there. And it's what you just shared initially, you said I tried to examine things through language, and you got to God. and and I remember that. I think yeah Ian McGilchrist he he said the many words for God or the divine, they are pointers, It's like you point at something, but you cannot get it. You can just point at it. And what you point at is actually an experience. And I think this is what you just shared, that actually, I mean, when you come to the end of the purely intellectual analytical journey, you're like, okay, I can't advance anymore. I need to actually try something else and that is a practice an and then you you said okay what what is the the maybe most potent form of inner exploration and you you found Stan Grof and his work and and the psychedelics and that sent you on a different trajectory of course and yeah<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (19:01)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. And in psychedelic work, I think in in other all deep experiential work, you learn by becoming what you want to learn about. So you you don't stay out of it and view it from the outside, but you must become that thing and you know it from the inside. Then you return to your ordinary condition and you process the experience of having become that for hours at a time. So to know God. through the mind, through outside, takes you a certain distance. But to know God by be by opening up to that dimension of your being where you already are that reality, where you already are a fractal embodiment of infinity, that opens up a different way of knowing and it opens up different insights, which now you know from an experiential basis. Now it's not to say that your experience is complete or perfect or, you know, doesn't make mistakes, but you're at least working from within an experience of the reality. and that I think is a a is a different protocol, a more exciting protocol.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (20:13)<\/strong> I think if we if we manage to see our mind as a faithful servant, so that guides our exploration, it can guide us to the places where we can make the new experiences. And so there it has value. I I'm in my own journey, but I think also people who come, for example, to our retreats, it's they often yearn for something, they long for something, but they can't get there because they don't know how to, right? It's like they don't know where the doors are that they could go through. And to access For example, what you just casually said, open up to the divine that you already are. I mean, this sounds like what do you mean? I mean, if you come with a a certain cultural baggage and education, right? You're you're being trained to approach the world in a certain way. So your mind doesn't know how to do it. And you have to basically drop out of the mind and into the body and into the earth or open up to other levels of experience. and as you said, psychedelics can a such a potent helper in that then if it's under the right conditions and of course safe setting and on. And<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (21:19)<\/strong> And Stan Grof was the one who really taught me several important things as a protocol. At first he taught me the protocol of isolating yourself from the outside world, eye shades, lying down, completely buffered from outer reality, so that you know whatever you're confronting is coming up from within yourself. And then he he taught me fearless endeavor, fearless encounter, so that whatever rises, you engage it. You never run from it, you go right into it. And the trust that there's the inner healer, the trust of the of the consciousness that you are will bring forward perhaps very difficult experiences. And you may not understand why these experiences are emerging, but if you allow them to take you where they want to take you, you will find that eventually there is a purification process, a death-rebirth process, and then as this suffering kind of reaches a culmination. you will go through a crisis and then emerge on the other side into an ecstatic, more expanded state of being. and that this is a process that repeats itself session by session. And so it was it was this confidence that he instilled in me of the well he would call it the the inner healer, the healer within. But more to me it's more than a healer, of course. It is a healer and it's also a philosophical sage. It's an initiator, and it brings you into a deeper experience of the universe itself.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (22:56)<\/strong> Yes. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. So Stan Grof he said the psychedelics are unspecific amplifiers of the human psyche. Right. I don't know if you would agree that they are really un<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (23:04)<\/strong> Yeah. I do.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (23:06)<\/strong> unspecific or anyway. if you say well there's also I mean you meet yourself in a certain way. Let's say aspects of your own biographical psyche, but you can also meet more than that. And we will talk about that, and you alluded to it already. and then of course, the the when you ask people to trust and to let go and to surrender and to or maybe even to fearlessly go forward. It I mean you're asking a lot from people, right? how did you have the or mobilize or manage to build the trust that you could actually go into the this the this kind of suffering? And what you also write about in your book, the many forms of death, and your conception of death? I mean, some people might have heard from ego death, your conception of death changed also, or your experience of death changed throughout the journey. How how did you mobilize the the trust and How did your perception of suffering and and death change in this throughout<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (24:12)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (24:12)<\/strong> this journey?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (24:14)<\/strong> Well, good questions. and long answers, but I'm gonna try to keep it short so we can move come through a lot of questions. again, I think I drew a lot of confidence in Stan and Stan's experience and his conclusion, his understanding of the death rebirth cycle. Now it is the case that my experience of the death rebirth cycle did not exactly parallel Stan's. It expanded it in certain ways and and elongated it in certain ways. So I had a lot of figuring out and learning to do on my own. But the basic conviction that first psychedelics don't give you a psychedelic experience. They are amplifiers of consciousness for hours at a time. And if you use this amplified state of consciousness conscientiously, then you can use it to purify the patterns, the conditions of your own consciousness, and as you these conditions are neutralized or lifted from you, then you're able to perceive a deeper, have a deeper experience of reality. That basic model is one that I I took from Stan and I found it to be true in my own experience. So once you then have your own experience of going through the cycle of death and rebirth, and you you do that systematically, then you develop your own trust that this is how it works. You expand, when you expand, it brings up the dirt and the sludge, and then as you process the dirt and the sludge, it gets out of your system and you move into deeper, clearer, epistemologically rich experiences. and then the question then becomes. When you start to go so deep, as long as you're staying at the psychodynamic level and dealing with personal history issues, we we have a confidence that this we understand how this system works, how therapeutic healing works at that level. When we go a bit deeper and begin to experience the consciousness that runs through all things, or we begin to have mystical experiences, and we experience the truth of oneness. We have spiritual traditions that can help us digest and metabolize those experiences and give us a feeling of what's real and what's not real. When you go very, very deep, go beyond healing, beyond even spiritual insights, into deeper categories, when you go into what I call the the deep waters of the psyche, and you're going into radically untested and untried dimensions. It's not that other people haven't gone there, but not many who live near you have gone there. It comes an issue of how can we trust these experiences? Can we<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (26:58)<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (26:59)<\/strong> how can we trust them to be more than simply an echo off my personal psyche or an even echo off the collective psyche? And Ken[neth] Ring, one of the early founders of Near Death Episode Research, a good friend and a wonderful scholar, when he read \"LSD and the Mind of the Universe\". He and I had a discussion. He brought me the same question. How do you know these experiences are trustworthy? Would a someone raised in India with a completely different set of cultural assumptions, would they have the same experiences or would they have a different experience? And if they would have really different experiences, doesn't that suggest that these are not universal experiences, not universally trustable experiences, but they are in some ways idiosyncratic. reflections of your own conditioning of the your own circumstances. So he and I had a back and forth exchange around this. And I it was a productive exchange and we eventually decided to publish it. And so it's online, it's in Medium, an online journal, and the title is \"Are Deep Psychedelic Experiences Trustable?\" Which he and I put together. And there I lay out my reasons for thinking that these are trustable, that they were not simply an echo of my own mind. And there are several reasons, just a couple of them, is there are certain circumstances in which some of your experiences can be empirically verified. And and there's a lot of those that I draw from Stan Grof. there are other experiences, of course, which cannot be empirically verified in the same way, but they can be collectively verified in the sense that people have from different cultures, from different backgrounds. They have overlapping experiences of these deep transcendental realities. And in that context, Stan, who is Stan Grof who has brought together thousands of experiences from hundreds of people from around the world, his data bank is very rich collectively. And my experiences basically fall within the framework of his digesting of these collective experiences. So it's a sense that if it were just my experience, No one else experienced these things, then you say, okay, maybe it's just that small. But when you find that other people are experiencing these same experiences, the same territories, then that encourages us to think that no, there's something larger here, there's something more definite here. but then there's something something about the nature of the experience itself. You you have a sense that you When you experience something in the physical world, you have developed a sense of what's real and what's not real. Reality has a tangible feeling to it rather than fantasy. And sometimes you may get confused whether something is real or not real, but largely we have a feeling tone of when something is real. And it happens also in psychedelic experiences. Even when you are having experiences which go beyond what is real in the physical world. They have a an epistemological transparency. They have an immediacy where you know what you were experiencing is real. It just assaults you with this reality. So when I was entering, for example, archetypal reality and session after session after session, for years, I had the distinct sensation that I was leaving, when I would leave the physical world, I was leaving the less real and I was entering the more real. That there is a reality behind physical reality which is more real than physical reality. And of course, now quantum theory and relativistic theory they're very comfortable with that type of assertion that there are multiple dimensions of the universe, and there is a way in which there are ontologically prior dimensions of existence prior to the physical world. And this is what one experiences in one's psychedelic session. So<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (31:01)<\/strong> yes, thank you. wonderful that you bring up this question yourself, because I would have asked it also. because especially people who haven't had for example, a psychedelic experience and who just know let's say altered states from other contexts. maybe people many many people are on coffee, so it's a potent psychoactive drug, right? so they're on coffee all the time. people know alcohol and the inebriation, that kind of state, for example. People know dreams. And they also might know being not conscious in a way in an anesthesia, in a surgery, or in deep sleep and so on. So people know altered states. but then they would say, yes, but you know, when I'm drunk, it's an altered state, but I don't claim it's a more true state, right? Or if I dream, I don't think the dream is more real than reality. And so I think it's not obvious for people who haven't had the experience. Why psychedelics are called psychedelics. Literally, that means mind manifesting, or even deeper in the old Greek understanding of the term more soul manifesting. psyche as a soul and not just the mind. It's the mind is a Western reduction. some people might have might know Michael Pollan, and you have with him. I He says there's this noetic quality, right? It feels real and and and true. And I can confirm this from my own experiences. and still people might say, yes, it might feel more true, but that doesn't make it true per se, right? You can also be sometimes deluded, You you imagine something to be true, you're very con convinced, but maybe it's not, And so then you said, yes, but we can also cross validate in a way by interviewing many people. And if they all report something as being their perception, that then it we increase our degree of faith into the what's being shared, right? so cross-cultural studies or comparative studies, like Stan Grof in a way did, having many patients going through his protocol, right? So And still there is one one one element I want to bring in before we continue with your sharing. so in the Western tradition of thinking, there is I think the a paradigm that is we are living so much in that it's not questioned. It's like materialism or physicalism, right? And so we think physical reality, the object world we see outside, or meat space. It has been called meat space, which is a funny word. So I mean physical, physical The physical world, this is the real reality in a way. And that's why we believe a lot in scientists doing brain research and so on. And we think we'll find the mystery of consciousness by analyzing brains, right? but then scientists have been working a lot on this already, and they find, of course, correlates between what people report and what shows up in the scanner and so on, brain scanner. yeah, so there's like oxytocin or serotonin release when people report, I'm happy or I'm. Connected and so whatever. But no one has ever found subjective experience, right? When you open the brain, you slice it, or so you don't find it. So it seems to be somewhere else. And this is, an intuition we all have naturally. And we don't realize that actually everything we experience, and of course, also all science that has ever been done, has been done through our consciousness, right? So it's the deeper access to reality that we have anyhow. And so sometimes people think. Yeah, but this is not legitimate, it's just subjective. But if you think about it, the the most important things are subjective. I will give the examples and that everyone can connect to them. So the taste of chocolate, the color orange, the smell of a rose, and the love you feel for your child or your parent or your loved one. Where are they in the physical world? How do you think that science with its method of trying to objectify and analyze from the outside could get there if they haven't gotten there yet? So I I just want to make the case that sometimes when people report their experiences, of course, we need to realise that we have only access through through our own subjectivity. And then of course we need to make sure that we're not completely crazy and out there when we have certain ideas. But So we we talk to people, we have now in in in our we have dialogue mechanisms and and and of course<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (35:13)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (35:16)<\/strong> we have science and and so on. But so I think it's important to make this case because what you experience, and I hope you will share more now about what you encountered about the cosmology, sounds to some people who come from a materialist or physicalist or mechanistic<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (35:30)<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (35:31)<\/strong> worldview, sounds Like out of this world, like how can we take this seriously? And and and I just wanted to bring this in that i it's<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (35:37)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (35:39)<\/strong> a blind spot of our culture in a way, part of our culture.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (35:42)<\/strong> Yeah. And and my colleagues in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies, most of them were atheistic and they're reductive materialists. And I know that worldview kind of inside and out. That's the worldview that that is the religion of universities for the most part today. and since I'm an academic, I wasn't just having my own personal psychedelic exploration. I was also tracking the the transition that our culture seems to be making from a physicalist paradigm to a multidimensional paradigm. And there's lots of aspects of that. There's many levels of that discussion which have nothing to do with psychedelics. They have to do with developments in quantum theory, development in in superstring theory or relativistic physics, developments in in biology, and I'm thinking Rupert Sheldrake's work in particular. A number of scientists I think science itself is deconstructing the materialism which was in place in its early years. In the 17th, 18th century, when science was being born, it adopted a particular metaphysical stance. But it the scientific method is distinct from its metaphysical a priori, its metaphysical stance. And now science is has moved to the point where scientists themselves at the leading edge. are deconstructing the materialism and basically opening up to, not opening up to religion as self, but they don't want to go back there, but opening up to the idea that the physical universe does not explain itself, that there are aspects at that operating at the quantum level or the quantum field level. There are aspects which lie outside physical reality, which help us understand some of the things that manifest in physical reality. And there are experiences which lead us to really question and challenge on empirical grounds the hypothesis that experience is being generated by our brain. There's lots of phenomena, psychic studies, near-death episode studies, a variety of phenomena that help us understand now more that the brain is like a transceiver, that consciousness is in a way outside of our physical body. And our brain focuses consciousness and brings it within the orbit of our individual awareness. But there are many phenomena that that violate the idea that consciousness is being generated by our brain. Clearly, if you poke around in the back of a TV set with a screwdriver, you can change h how the picture manifests on the screen. And you can poke around the brain and change your experience of reality. But we understand That the television is a focuser of television waves, radio waves that are outside the physical set and are being generated by a station down across town. There's just in but that's a whole separate discussion which is taking place in the background. But I find it to be a a worthwhile discussion because it gives a deeper context, it gives us greater permission to explore the potentially genuineness. Of these radical experiences that do not fit within a physic a physical paradigm, a reductive paradigm. And I think Stan Grof did a an excellent discussion in his book \"Beyond the Brain\" in the first chapter, opening up a discussion between consciousness research and this new paradigm thought, and showing how conscious psychedelic experiences. Do not fit comfortably within a reductive Newtonian paradigm, but they fit very comfortably within a quantum relativistic paradigm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (39:33)<\/strong> Yeah, thank you for this. I think it's it's important because for me is this is part of laying the groundwork for for helping people to open up fully to what your experience was. Otherwise I might always think, but this is just a dream, or how can this be? And it was maybe a drug-induced experience or something. But but at the deeper level of ontology, so what is the nature of reality? We I think as collectively as a culture, we are coming to the limits of the physicalist paradigm and we are entering a world where we see we reappreciate the importance of consciousness and that it might very well be foundational. So that experience is at the deepest level of reality, something which the Eastern wisdom traditions and you have studied them also extensively, that they had intuited already thousands of years ago. And that we have kind of forgotten and put to the side because we couldn't really study it, right? So we have split it off like the the mind stuff, the subjective stuff, and we just focused on the hard things, and then we we we thought this is all there is, and consciousness is like an epiphenomena of of the brain or something. And you know, David Chalmers, famous philosopher, he said the heart problem of consciousness. How can it be that the brain creates subjective experience? But then you're already in the trap of physicalism.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (40:50)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (40:51)<\/strong> Because<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (40:51)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (40:52)<\/strong> does it at all. and and what you just said is there are also other ways of seeing it. So not that the brain generates consciousness. Of course, it's somehow involved in it. I mean and<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (41:01)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (41:02)<\/strong> what you said, like with a screwdriver, points to that. So if you mess with the brain and you deactivate certain regions, people lose certain capacities or so on, of course. but the relationship is much deeper, much more complex than than that. And I like the the idea transceiver, you said.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (41:18)<\/strong> Transceiver, Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (41:19)<\/strong> I I would add to it and I want have your view on it because you said also that of course we are participating in the universe. So we are active co-creators of of reality, right? We meet reality and it's it's shaping us and we are being shaped by it. And I would say, yes, the radio receiver analogy might might help, but it's also limiting because it's not as passive, maybe, as the radio is, right? The there are just the waves outside and we are just like a receiver. I think it's it's a co creative participatory relationship. And but I don't know, I think you agree, but it's just the the limits of third metaphors, and of course. So yeah, yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (41:55)<\/strong> Yeah, I think that's always we have to be careful of the limits of the language we're using. And I think you're raising an important point to understand the co-creative quality of our experiences. And so I'll just focus on the co-creative quality of psychedelic experiences, but it applies to other areas of life as well. Jorge Ferrer has written a book on \"revisioning. transpersonal theory\" where he emphasizes what he calls a participatory cosmology. And I find his work very useful for understanding what happens in psychedelic space at all. At a naive level, we might think that these cosmological experiences are like apples hanging off the cosmic tree. We go into a non-ordinary state, we just pluck them and we have we they're available for the taking. We just take them and pluck them off. But I don't think it's as simple as that. I think the way I think of it is that the universe is an infinite, has infinite potential. It's a field of infinite potential. And when we take a psychedelic, one way of thinking about it is we drop our mind into this field of infinite potential. And our mind catalyzes out of this potential a certain set of experiences. And as we digest these experiences and allow them to impact us and purify us and and and take us, clean us out in a way. The next time we take a psychedelic we drop our mind, it's a different mind into the infinite potential, and it catalyzes a different set of experiences out of its infinite potential. And if we keep this up on and on, then as we are changed and purified and transformed by these experiences, it catalyzes a deeper and richer And more cosmologically broad set of experiences out of its infinite potential. Now, that doesn't mean that our conditioning is creating the experiences that we're having. So I'm not simply I've studied religions, I've studied mysticism, therefore I'm giving myself mystical experiences because that's my study. Actually, the experiences that I've had have undone My studies, as much as they have reinforced those studies, they've taught me things that I did not know were even possible. But it is the case that a psychedelic experience is a participatory experience. We participate in the process that brings these experiences forward. This leads us to ask the the deeper question then is: how much has my system been purified of its assumptions? When I enter into successively deeper psychedelic experiences. So once you recognize that there's a cycle between your individual consciousness and the your experiences in infinite consciousness, then it becomes a matter of wanting to clean out as many assumptions as you can so that you enter into a deeper experience of reality. Because what we want Is reality. We want to know what's happening, what's real, what really is there. And to do that, we have to let go of our precon preconceptions. We have to let go of our assumptions and let experience take us beyond our assumptions into deeper levels of the reality itself. And again, why do we think that these are deeper levels of reality? Partly because other people can have these experiences. Other people have the experiences and partly because of the noetic quality of the experiences themselves, and partly because when you catalog a large number of these experiences and put them together, they form a composite whole. They don't form chaos, they don't form fragments. There is a fundamental worldview. And if we compare that worldview, that cosmology. To the cosmologies that emerge in non-psychedelic contexts, like mystical context or meditative context, Kashmir Shaivism or Vajrayana Buddhism we find that the cosmology is fundamentally the same. So we begin to understand we're looking at a different technology for accessing dimensions of consciousness. Which are giving us true and legitimate insights into the nature of reality. However, there is no reason to believe that we we reach the final ultimate designation or ultimate description of this reality. Because we have to remember always, the universe has been developing itself in this iteration for 13.7 or 13.8 billion years. It's going to be continuing developing it for billions and billions of years yet. We are a species that only began to wake up to the fundamental universal quality of consciousness maybe 5,000, 6,000 years ago. We are babies in an in this universe that it's been developing. So we will continue to evolve for millions and millions and billions of years. It would be foolish to think that we can, in this present state of our evolutionary saga, know everything that there is to know about ultimate reality. Even our true insights, even our metaphysically true insights, I think we have to have the humility of recognizing that they are themselves incomplete. And there is a there's a comfort in taking refuge in that incompleteness because it always leaves us open to wanting to learn more.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (47:40)<\/strong> Hmm. Yeah, nice. I I I will come back to that. what you just said, that is an open-ended exploration because you haven't shared so much about what you found about the cosmos yet. And there are different kinds of levels that you encountered that rhyme a bit loosely what many mystics have reported and what was framed by Ken Wilber as well as moving from ordinary consciousness like gross the gross dimension sometimes it's called you called it the psychic level to the subtle domain sometimes also described maybe as the energy subtle perception of energy domain to the causal and non-dual and you have said I think that you don't make such a distinction between causal and non-dual I think I'm I'm curious to learn about that, but I'm just wanted to say the so certain elements of what you have encountered there that have these have been described in the by the wisdom traditions, especially from the East and also by people who engage in deliberate meditation practice in the West. but it it does have certain specific elements that are were also new, let's say, especially when we talk about the diamond soul or diamond consciousness, what you described comes as. the final realization. I think you you will not<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (48:54)<\/strong> It's<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (48:56)<\/strong> you will resist because it's actually not the final, but like so this this could you talk about this progression of your experience and then we we loop back to the question, is it like the end then when you get to diamond consciousness or how should we think about it? Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (49:11)<\/strong> Well this I borrowed some vocabulary just to give some basic metaphysical structuring. we can differentiate between in transpersonal experience or in non-physical or spiritual reality. astral reality, subtle reality, causal reality. and Wilber places non dual reality beyond causal, okay. astral is that dimension of spiritual reality which is most closely associated with physical reality. It has some of the characteristics of physical reality. I don't pay too much attention to that, but I use the categories of subtle reality, causal reality, and for me the domain of diamond luminosity. So let me step having and<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (49:54)<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (49:55)<\/strong> I give, you know, Stan has that vocabulary worked out and he Ken Wilber has its own applications. I give my own description of those levels of reality. When I was looking back over the whole of my 73 sessions and was beginning to figure out how to break it down into the stages of development and how to speak about it, I found that there were basically five overlapping categories of experience that I went through. And I don't have any vested interest in suggesting that this is a definitive map is just simply organizing patterns of experience. First, there was experiences having to do with the personal mind, the psychodynamic level, and even the perinatal level, the interface between the low-level spiritual reality and physical reality, Stan's level of perinatal or the way the level of reality that intersects between space and time and space and extra space. so there was the levels having to do with personal mind, personal memories, claiming of personal hurts and grievances and so on and so forth. the second, the level of collective mind, where the realities that you're dealing with are not primarily personal, even in the extended personal of karmic memories, former life memories, but where the reality that you're working with is fundamentally collective. Collective consciousness, species mind, species consciousness, the consciousness of other species existing as a collective integrated entity. Third level, the level of archetypal reality. Archetypal reality is enters into what is called subtle level reality, where you're you're engaging the deeper architecture of space-time reality. It's like These are the steel girders that hold the skyscraper together. And individual reality, time space reality may be consid like into the rooms inside the the skyscraper where we live and we decorate. But the structure of the skyscraper, the arc the beams, the the deep structure, those are encountered at the archetypal level of reality where you're encountering The principles and beings, if you will, that actually build and manifest time space and some of the fundamental structures within time and space. Plato refers to this in his describing archetypes. Jung describes a different level of this but also archetypal reality, that which is transcends personal reality. Beyond archetypal reality, I place causal reality. And the signature quality of causal reality is oneness. Even archetypal reality is dualistic. There are bigger, bigger pieces, but the pieces are ultimately plural. And in causal reality, the experience is that the world lives and breathes as one, Plotinus says. So you're always experiencing the fundamental oneness of life, the experiencing the diversity of life. As an integrated manifestation of the fundamental oneness of existence. And then by the time I had been doing this work for 15 years, I had experienced all the levels that we're talking about. Causal-level reality is like the level of God, the monotheism God. I was philosophically totally satiated. And yet there were five years. Yet to go, and that's when I crossed over into the domain that I describe as the diamond luminosity. Now, when one experiences light at many transitional points. When one goes through ego death, one typically experiences a domain of light. when one has mystical experiences, this often is associated with bright bright, bright light, overwhelming light. There are many aspects of light. So when I'm describing diamond luminosity, I'm not trying to use a fancy word to describe this light. I'm trying to describe a particular quality of light, a singularly pure, clear, transparent, highly energized dimension of light. The closest I could find in the spiritual literature that correlated with my experience was the Buddhist concept, the Vajrayana Buddhist concept, Tibetan Buddhist concept. Of Dharmakaya, the clear light of absolute reality, the light out of which the manifestation of the universe emerges, the light that gave birth to the Big Bang, if you will. In the last five years of work, of my work and 26 sessions, which is actually a third of my entire session journeys, I entered this reality only four times. And in between, about once a year. For four years with one experience intervening. And in between these four times, there's lots of cleansing, lots of more deaths and rebirths, lots of purification before I could go back into this reality again. So those four categories personal mind, collective mind, archetypal mind, causal mind, and diamond luminosity. there are many levels at which you you come to points where You are drawn into something that feels absolutely primal and it has the quality of home. I'm being home. I'm remembering something which I have forgotten for billions of years. And there is a feeling of homecoming and intaking and absolute resting in the arms of the divine reality. But I found that there are actually levels of this that one can have this experience at an even still deeper level. What might that look like? And when I entered the diamond luminosity, I entered what for me was the deepest level that I ever reached in in any of my sessions. It was just an a feeling of absolute being taken into the diamond body of the divine, into the into a luminosity that pervades all existence, into an absolute ecstatic state of homecoming into divine bliss. And when I was in the deepest level of that experience that I had ever reached, and I was absolutely satiated with this ecstatic oneness, all of a sudden my vision, my field of vision shifted 90 degrees, and I saw reality far in the distance. And that reality was bathed in a light, and a beam of that light came and hit me, and it completely shattered me. And I was in the diamond luminosity condition. And that one experience, which lasted only a few seconds, taught me a fundamental truth. And it required me to revise my understanding because the I had always a thought the purpose of this work was to get to the end, get to ground rack, get to get home, to get to become one with God or to enter the metacosmic void or There'd be some condition at the end that would solve all paradoxes and all questions. Now I realize it's an infinite progression. We we get into stages of profound harmony and profound homecoming and profound remembering, and those are all true and good. But that doesn't mean we've reached the end of the universe. There are levels that I realize I would never reach in my lifetime, even using this powerful method. So that's where I emphasize the open-endedness of the journey. And that's also why I would be gentler with myself today, because some of the intensity of the protocol that I adopted was on the assumption that I was going a finite distance. Now I realize you never get to the end of the road. Better to go more slowly, to open up more gently, take in everything you can from that level, that level of communion. Let it change you, let it transform you, live in co in deeper cooperation with existence. And I would be more patient now with my evolution than I was when I was an impatient young man.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (58:16)<\/strong> Yeah, that would have been one of my questions. Do you recommend your protocol to others? And you just answered it that you do not. And<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (58:20)<\/strong> You do not. I didn't.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (58:24)<\/strong> I mean I also want to get back to the cosmology, but because you said we ended up with the okay, the the journey is open ended, it's never ending. and you would be more gentle with you if you were to do it again. What advice would you give yourself as a young man, knowing what you know now, which might also be an advice you might give to other people who want to explore mind and consciousness and maybe the cosmos through psychedelics or other means more gentle means what would you tell them?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (58:54)<\/strong> If they were going to work on a psychedelic path, I would encourage them to balance high dose sessions with low dose sessions. I would encourage them. Each psychedelic has certain qualities. it resonates with a certain portion of the spectrum of consciousness. Not all psychedelics activate all levels of the spectrum of consciousness. LSD has a tendency to activate what I would think of as higher cosmological levels at high doses. At lower doses, it activates lower levels. But psilocybin, for example, is a beautiful medicine that tends to activate very personal emotional bound, the emotional energies. It it really can help one integrate these deeper cosmological experiences. So I would recommend if you have deep cosmological experiences with some high dose work in your next sessions to work with psilocybin or ayahuasca or the green psychedelics, the the the plant psychedelics to help you integrate and absorb the teachings and the energies that you've let loose with these higher sessions. And then I would be more methodical in terms of a balancing of low dose and then selective high dose sessions. And this is always the case. You should If you're going to work with what I call a path of temporary immersion, where you enter into temporary deep states of consciousness, it's important to counterbalance that with a daily spiritual practice, a meditation practice, a yogic practice, a Tai Chi Chuan practice, some practice which you use every day, because these psychedelic states are extraordinarily powerful. They can be intoxicating, but they are very demanding on your body and your subtle energy system. And it's I think meditation, the discriminating awareness one develops in meditation, helping sort out, you know, the different levels of things that are going through your mind and discriminating what's real and what's transitory. that discriminating awareness is very helpful in psychedelic states. So there's many ways in which meditation and psychedelic work complement each other and support each other. Likewise. Yoga, the purifying of the body and the subtle energy systems, very important as a complement to psychedelic work because in psychedelic work you open your system to enormous flows of energy, just huge flows of energy, which can be challenging on the physical body and on your subtle energy system, on the chi system, the Brahma system. And working with yoga can help you absorb this energy and help you process this energy and help you work this energy. And I discussed this. in a one particular section in in \"LSD in the mind of the universe\". So always emphasizing a daily spiritual practice and more more wisdom in choosing what psychedelic to do in rhythm of a longer practice.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:01:57)<\/strong> Yeah, thank you for this. I let me add to to that maybe so people might ask, okay, so but how does it actually work? can I achieve certain states or state experiences only through psychedelics or through other practices as well, right? And that would be one question. Some people might feel like I'm not sure about substances. Are there substance-free way ways to get to these depths or heights, however you wanna<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:02:21)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:02:23)<\/strong> think about it? and so I'm I'm curious about your how you think<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:02:30)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:02:31)<\/strong> the the the how the psychedelics work. I mean Aldous Huxley has said they open the doors of perceptions, right? So they remove filters. And you shared just also you soften the boundaries maybe of yourself, and then you open up to more from what's Outside of what you have considered yourself. And that has a lot of it's not just information, it's also energy. Right. And so it's a progressive opening up or it's almost like peeling off the layers of of boundaries, and then you perceive more. And can that be done also by by the traditional means of meditation and so on? Or do you say no? I think LSD, for example, has something that is really hard to get to through other in and compared to other<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:03:17)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:03:18)<\/strong> modalities.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:03:19)<\/strong> Yeah. I think certainly there is nothing unique about psychedelics in terms of accessing these states. Because psychedelics are just amplifiers of consciousness, it's consciousness that does the work. And so other practices which use just consciousness can certainly reach the same levels that one can reach with psychedelics, because it's consciousness that does the work. One of the issues is it takes much longer. It takes not only years of practice, but lifetimes of practice. So that when you look at people whose spiritual experiences in a meditation or contemplative tradition equals or parallels what happens in psychedelic work, it usually comes from the lives of masters who have been doing these practices not just for years, but generations. They've been incarnating over and over. And have these very, very subtle, refined states of consciousness. So the advantage and the disadvantage of psychedelics is that it can give us access to some of these states, temporary access, not abiding access. That's really important. The masters may have abiding access, but psychedelics give us temporary access, which can be an advantage, but also as a disadvantage because you go into the condition and then you withdraw back out of the condition. And Now we're getting we have such a repertoire, such an arsenal of psychedelic substances, we're finding that it's increasingly easy to break into these territories. But that doesn't mean it's easy to integrate those territories and to absorb them into your being. And for that, many of the what I would call the slow-bake spiritual practices are very beneficial and much more helpful. So yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:05:05)<\/strong> Yes, because he said like so the the our minds catalyze the experience and the psychedelics are themselves catalysts, so you catalyze your mental capacities that is already accessing something. And so you get maybe a a sneak preview of important truth about the cosmos. but it's almost like a short preview, but then you you go back to your current level of development, maybe you could say, or capacity to hold or to to integrate to to be integrated, right?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:05:36)<\/strong> And just because you've had a profound experience and you come back and your children show you really quickly you have not become a profound person just because you've had these profound experiences. And that's the greatest danger of working with psychedelics, psychic inflation. You can think that because you've had a great experience, you've you become a great person. And that's just a fool's a fool's error. I mean that we have to have the humility to understand That what's important in any psychedelic practice is not what you do during a day of a session, not what happens in the day of a session. It's what you can do the day and the week and the months after a session are over. That's the test of the the test of the practice.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:06:21)<\/strong> Mm-hmm. And did you manage to over time? I mean, those were 20 years, right? four years of intense work, then six years of pause, and then ten more years of intense work. did you manage to stay porous have more softer boundaries and and carry with you this knowledge of the intimacy with the larger spheres or did it fade away and after a couple of days, weeks, months, you forgot it in a way. yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:06:47)<\/strong> Yeah. Well, I wish I could say that these profound changes changed my being more quickly than they in fact have. I think these deep experiences, these temporary experiences, do change your evolutionary trajectory, but they change it more slowly than I had hoped in the beginning. They become they act as strange attractors that sort of draw you in the direction that your evolutionary trajectory is taking you. But you still have to do a lot of work. I mean, this is why I think conventional spiritual practice is important to maintain, because you still have a lot of work to do before you can maintain anything like these states in your ordinary state of consciousness. And so I would say that when I finished my work in 99, I think that I have integrated those experiences much more now, 25 years later. than I did in 1999 when I had finished the work. I learned that integrating individual sessions is different than integrating the entire journey. The entire journey is much more challenging to integrate than individual sessions. And I think I did a good job integrating individual sessions. But to integrate the entire journey is a much larger, more demanding enterprise. And I I really think that Well, writing the book helped me integrate. Having these kind of conversations helped me integrate. I continue to do my spiritual practice, which helps me integrate. But I don't think I'll be finished integrating these sessions for the rest of my life. I think I will die with them incompletely integrated and because I think these sessions give me have given such deep access to dimensions of reality that it'll be multiple lifetimes. Before I can really say, I I really have integrated them. In fact, in I am now, I can't even imagine what integrating some of the more radical experiences would look like. When you transcend time, when you go into what I call deep time, just large swaths of thousands and thousands of years, when you radically transcend the limits of your physical body and enter into the body of humanity for hours at a time. How do you truly integrate those experiences back into your finite present body, into your limited spatial body? How do you integrate infinite time, infinite space into your personal existence? There are insights and values, of course, that change your priorities, give you a different orientation, how you live your life. But to integrate them as a living reality, I I can't say that I can go into any meditative state and reactivate states of consciousness that I had in my deepest psychedelic experiences. They don't I there are too many levels still to be worked with in between. So, however, I've maintained them clearly enough that they are clear living memories. And memories are not simply Memories have great potential in an integrated spiritual practice. So the memories of transcendence, the memories of hyper purity, the memories of hyperclarity can be used in a daily practice, a spiritual practice to to clarify and to soften and to direct the your practice on a day-to-day basis. Even if you can't, and if I were to take a very, very powerful dose of psychedelics. I would not be able to go back today where I was at the end of my long work because I've learned these things have a it's like training for the Olympics. You have to train and train and train. You're working your system, you're developing energy, you're you're training. And it's that training which lifts you periodically into these exalted states of awareness. So that I would have to do years of training before I could go back into some of these exalted states. And so I'm more comfortable working with what I have at present than I was before.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:11:15)<\/strong> there's this famous book, \"After the Ecstasy, the Laundry\". and usually people think about integration as maybe lasting a lifetime, but now what you shared gave me a new idea that it might actually be many lifetimes and that there might be an accumulation of experience and of opening up. you Familiarized yourself with Ian Stevenson's work and who worked on the reincarnation memories of children, and that convinced you that there must be something to reincarnation. And I from your book, I of course I I know that also you had insights into this, into these cycles of death and rebirth or reincarnation. And because psychedelics are soul manifesting, I want to ask you. About what did you learn from your experience about your soul and its direction or mission? I don't know if that's the right word. and<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:12:05)<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:12:08)<\/strong> what can people how can people relate to the to it when they don't have this knowledge of or memories of reincarnation?<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:12:19)<\/strong> Well, in some of my experiences, some of my psychedelic experiences, I recovered memories of previous lives and healed some of the the pains of those previous lives. But I also had done three years of work in past life therapy using hypnosis to sort of access and and familiarizing myself with some of my former lives and then other ones emerged in my psychedelic work. But to me, there's a broader lesson that emerges from the work. It's not just that reincarnation is true, but it's understanding what is reincarnation doing? How does how does a larger pattern of life work? And I think of reincarnation as a higher octave of evolution. It's part of the same process of evolution. I think our understanding of evolution is partly correct and partly not correct. We tend to see it in reductive materialist mechanistic terms. And there are elements, which I'm sure that's true, but there's a deeper process driving. Evolution evolves whole species. Whole species evolve together. Reincarnation has found the universe has found a way of taking certain species of a higher psychological capacity. And evolving individuals within the species. But the basic process of going from the less complex to the more complex is consistent. So in reincarnation, we see nature amassing thousands and thousands and thousands of years of experience. And it's not just having had those experiences, but it it amasses the learning from those experiences. So that we are always learning more, integrating more, growing, developing. And the Hindu tradition recognizes this when they talk about young souls, middle-aged souls, old souls, which is just a metaphor for the learning that one accumulates over time. People have different aptitudes, they show themselves interested in different things, and some of those things are so to speak kind of childlike, and some of them are very wise and mature. And we recognize this difference in us, and reincarnation simply helps us understand these differences. But I also was shown something that changed my understanding of reincarnation. I mean, I my first book was on reincarnation, it was my response to Ian Stevenson. And I was still under the influence of what I would call the up and out cosmologies of the axial age, of the religions that came into existence five, six thousand years ago. Axial age religions, they all were part of an up and out cosmology. So the purpose is to achieve enlightenment or achieve salvation and then to leave this veil of tears and to have some type of off-planet spiritual realization afterwards. And the whole purpose was to empty planet Earth and and let us all return to the pristine condition of prior. And I understand the historical circumstances in which this understanding emerged, because When we began to actually have experiences, maybe five thousand years ago, of the mother universe, and we experienced the the bliss and the joy of that universe and the homecoming of that universe, how could we not but conclude somehow we've fallen out of heaven, somehow we've been banished from heaven, out of the Garden of Eden. We now are in a a a highly compromised world which is inherently unsatisfying. All we want to do is get back to there. And we develop a cosmology of saviors and teachers whose role it is to get us back to there. And what emerged in my sessions is something different, which I think is resonant with a deeper emerging paradigm. And the specific experience that led me in this direction was one particular day when I had the experience of all of my former lives coming back to me. And they were like wrapping. Kite string around a kite spool, the filaments of human experience, more and more human experience, experience, experience. And at a certain point, the energy of all that learning, all those lives fused into one. And in fusing into one, there was an ignition that took place and exploded me. A light, a diamond light came out of my chest and exploded me into a state of consciousness that I had never touched before. And in this state of consciousness, I was an individual. It wasn't like losing yourself in cosmic oneness. I was an individual, but I was an individual beyond any frame of reference I had never known before. So this then was elaborated into a series of teachings that was showing me this is not simply about you. This is about all humanity. All humanity we've been incarnating and incarnating and incarnating for thousands and thousands of years. And we've been making progress and developing capacities and you know interests. But it's not simply incremental growing. Eventually, in the process of evolving, reincarnation, eventually I think the species comes to a threshold where as a species, we are challenged to make a transition. From living in our small personal lives to living the life of the soul. And this is what I call the birth of the diamond soul. And I think this is the challenge that we have come to at this point in history. We literally cannot continue to run this planet on the basis of egoic consciousness. It's simply even well intentioned egoic consciousness is too small. We need to grow up. And I think growing up involves of basically welcoming and affirming soul consciousness to waken into soul consciousness and we experience the soul when we die. That is the consciousness that holds all our hundreds and thousands of incarnations. We experience that when we die. But I think what's happening is the soul is waking up inside humanity, inside the human condition. And the goal then is not to escape into some transcendent paradise. But to bring that joy, that happiness of heaven into time and space, to literally bring heaven on earth and to and to transform the condition of earth into that heavenly paradise right here, right now. And a species which has made this transition to soul consciousness is a radically different species than the species that we are now. So my understanding of reincarnation deepened and it changed my understanding. of it as an evolutionary driver and the the goal is not to leave here, but the goal is to change the course of human history by incarnating more divine consciousness, more spiritual consciousness into the physical body. in creating a civilization that such a being would create.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:19:32)<\/strong> Yeah, that's wonderful. There's so much in there. I wish we had much more time. so I mean Basically, like to bring it back to to maybe someone who comes from the who has physicalist or materialist intuitions. So the the invitation would be in a way to open up to the possibility that is more and more a probability also from modern science, from a modern science perspective, but especially when we consider the ancient wisdom traditions and experiences such as yours. To open up to this possibility that actually consciousness is fundamental and that we can get access to much more than our individual psyche, like our individual life, memories and everything, when we embark on certain paths, such as the path of psychedelic exploration. And that then we can meet. different levels. The levels we just briefly, touched upon, as you said, like the the collective, the the species mind, the the archetypal reality, the causal reality and the diamond soul. And I mean each of these levels merits hours of of of conversation. But that in principle we can access those levels. And that this is something that it has a structure. It has a quality of being not not a dream but realer than more real than real. And that we can almost like reliably get there in a way. I remember from how you wrote that each journey you took after two or three months pause started exactly where the other one ended. Whatever happened in between in your everyday life, right? Your obligations and then so that there is something with a certain structure and reliability to explore, and that this might mean that actually we're accessing a deeper truth. And that And that this story that waits for us there is much, much more exciting also than the mechanistic materialist reductive paradigm, which basically declares the world as meaningless matter. And then when we die, we're gone and and and whatever. And there are many people who live in that materialist paradigm, right? Others not, and they are asking questions and they're being curious about the deep questions that human humans have always had. what is what does it all mean? What's our place in the universe? Who am I? What is this all about? And I can only encourage everyone to to really read your book, to really understand what we have been talking about. It's almost like we we talked about it a bit and you shared certain vignettes or so on, but but I mean there's so much more in this and it's so rich. And for me if we can move closer to this, and open up to this, that actually the the cosmos is a living creative. thing that we are part of and that we can that is not out there only it's in us as well.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:22:17)<\/strong> Yes. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:22:18)<\/strong> It's in us actually we find it we can find it in us. I mean I I just want to bring this in like psychedelics have also been called by Karl Ruck I think entheogens. So they make you realize your inner divinity the divine within in a way but what<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:22:31)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:22:33)<\/strong> that means I mean if you haven't had the experience of course it's just a word. It's like It's like a a a pointer, like okay, pointer. and you have to have certain experiences to be able to comprehend how that can be true, that in yourself, if you think you're your own little individual ego and separate from others, that you can find answers to those deep questions about your life and and reality. And yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:22:55)<\/strong> And when you touch when you touch your center, when you touch that part in you which you know predates your historical existence as Christopher Bache when you touch your center, the stunning surprise is this center is the same center that lives inside every living being, every being, not just human beings, but all life forms, every ant, every stone, every pebble. It's it's a universal center, and that's That's a when you awaken to the God within, you also awaken to the God of all. The ancient shaman's call this all my relations. He comes out of a shamanic trance, all my relations. And that's the feeling. The feeling is you've touched a center that the very, very center of your being, and it it it puts you in immediate rapport and respect with the manifold manifestation of the divine. In the universe, as the universe. You know, the Hindus say God did not so much create the world as God became the world. And you experience that not by going just out into the world, but by going to your your very, very center, where this takes place in your being, and then you recognize it's it's everywhere, it's unstoppable, it's everywhere. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:24:17)<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Yes, and there's even there's some theories from from science, right, which would support that view. There's a holographic principle or holographic theory that says like in each element in the universe you find it is i the essence of the whole is included. And in a way, I mean if you think about it, if something is the universe or everything. It needs to be connected also internally to everything. It cannot be separate because if something is separate from the universe, it wouldn't be part of the universe. So actually, this relationship of it's it's like a I think Bernardo Castrop from Essentia Foundation, he said like a process of dissociation, right? You originally there was oneness and then it it split into different parts, but those parts are not separate. They cannot be separate, otherwise, they would be outside of the universe. They are inside of the living cosmos. And so in each of us, in every entity that we discern, which is like a a fiction in a way, to to see isolated objects, it's it's like a construction in a way. In each of us, you find the essence of the whole. And I mean you can make a good case for it by mathematics, physics, and so on, like non-reductionist physics and and of course so on. And and this is it<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:25:34)<\/strong> It's different when you experience it.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:25:36)<\/strong> and and exactly so. The the science and also in my my own process is having also science open up to it or talk about it. You mentioned quantum physics and there's a whole conversation we could have about that. that this gives me or gave me an intellectual permission to open up to those things and take them seriously. like otherwise the I had always the doubt like but Maybe I'm just imagining all of this, or it's just like a nice theory or so. I don't know. And so but like to to see how there's a concilience between different ways of knowing and research traditions. gives you permission. And then the experience itself can only convince you. And I haven't traveled as far as you have. I I cannot claim this. I'm often I feel like I'm stuck at the coex matrix, like at the perinatal stuff. and I I had glimpses. of more, but I'm not in a sustainable way accessing those levels. I I had yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:26:32)<\/strong> Takes time, doesn't it? It takes time. These things don't melt instantly. You have to kind of peel the layers away. And that<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:26:37)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:26:40)<\/strong> takes time. But with patience, and everybody, when they start their psychedelic work in the early stages, we have different experiences because we have different histories. And so those histories manifest in our lives and they manifest there. But as you go into what Stan calls the death, you know, the perinatal death rebirth process, I would call it the the the existential level, the death-rebirth process where you are consuming your personal history up to this point in time. And you and that personal history just implodes and collapses and dies, and you work through these core systems and perineatal matrix systems. Then when one gets to that critical, critical junction of what is the nature of life itself? What is is there any meaning at all for any of us in life itself? We find that people's experiences begin to converge out of whatever background they bring to it, whatever Baptist or evolutionary reductive reductive scientist or whatever a religious background or atheistic background, there is a convergence of opinion. And when you go through that death-rebirth process, Stan reports that every person he has witnessed that goes through the death rebirth adopts some version of a spiritual understanding of existence. That seems to be the universal finding. But it takes time to<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:28:01)<\/strong> Mm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:28:02)<\/strong> go through all those levels. Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:28:04)<\/strong> Yes, yes. and it is an experience and ultimately people are convinced only when they see it with their own eyes. So if they experience it themselves. And if you had glimpses of it, then you think, okay, something I can look forward to. And I think for me and maybe also for some others, the high dose psychedelic experiences were also gave me glimpses or intimations of something. And that you know there's a there there, I can move towards it and in my own pace, of course, in in everyone's own pace. do the purification as you called it. So the integration work, the the the healing work, and so on.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:28:44)<\/strong> Yeah. In near-death experience research, near death experiences are another area where we can study them thoroughly, we can talk to the people who have had these experiences, we can now calculate how what a percentage of a population has had these experiences, and we can we find a common ground in those experiences. And we find people undergoing the same type of transformation in their thinking as happens in near-death episode experience. In fact, the the group of people that I feel the closest kinship with in my psychedelic work is really people who've had deep near death experiences. Cause I think there's a a deep correlation there. Yeah. Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:29:26)<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Yes, and and the interpretation of these experiences changes fundamentally if you don't interpret it as a malfunction of their brains, but as actually liberating them from certain limits right of ordinary perception and maybe going back to an a wider expanded state of perception and mind, that is maybe the soul level first and and and then other levels. And different traditions have different names for it, of course. okay, Chris, we have been speaking for one and a half hours already. I I we didn't get too many things I wanted to ask you about. I maybe we have to have a second conversation. the<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:30:05)<\/strong> Could be I'd be glad to. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:30:07)<\/strong> the collective dimensions, the collective suffering that you experienced, also also your what you shared briefly, the trajectory of of humanity, and maybe more about archetypal reality and and The diamond soul. I mean, there's so much more to explore. I'm<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:30:21)<\/strong> Much more. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:30:23)<\/strong> and maybe we would also if if if people want this to bring in some more science or so on if they if they need this or if they want this. Because I think depending on where you come from, you need this to give you the intellectual permission to then be fully open to to the sharings of people who have traveled as far as you, right? So let's see. I mean<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:30:42)<\/strong> And then they're very fine thinkers writing excellent work in this area. And I would just underscore in parting Ervin L\u00e1szl\u00f3 has written multiple books integrating contemporary physics and biology in the sciences with consciousness research. and and he's qualified in a way that I never would be to have that discussion. And so yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:31:02)<\/strong> Yes. Yes. Yeah, and and maybe, I mean, one of the counterparadigms to the physicalist materialist paradigm would be the idealist paradigm, right? And so the work by Bernardo Castrop and and others. I think it's very interesting. And Federico Faggin as a as a physicist and the inventor of the microprocessor. So he has like top-notch credentials as an engineer and physicist. And and and see that they come from from that tradition or upbringing and they they they also move into that direction. And it's I I think there's like a convergence of of different developments from different<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:31:38)<\/strong> I think there is. And that that makes a a very interesting and exciting development in intellectual history, that there<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:31:45)<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:31:45)<\/strong> is this convergence between scientific, hardcore scientists and<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:31:47)<\/strong> Yes. Yes.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:31:50)<\/strong> people who are willing to push the experiential boundaries in psychedelic work. You know,<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:31:54)<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:31:55)<\/strong> yeah. It's exciting times. It's truly we're looking we're in a revolutionary time, a paradigm shifting time. And I don't mean to underestimate the challenges The old paradigm thinkers would bring to these experiences. They're important, important challenges and things to address. But if we stay with this discussion long enough and bring in enough of the scientific, the you know, really pioneers in science, then I think a larger horizon begins to open where we can allow in some of these experiences and ask ourselves: okay, what kind of world are we living in if these experiences are true and if these new scientific insights are true? What is the nature of my reality? What is the nature of our shared reality? Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:32:40)<\/strong> Yes, yes. Exactly. I mean, what does it imply about the nature of the cosmos or universe if your experiences are true? I I mean that is a fascinating question and I I I hope people are got curious about it for your conversation and they want to go deeper. I I'm I wanna show the the book again. So if you're interested, please check out \"LSD and the mind of the universe\". if people want to learn more, where would you point them? how could they reach out or<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:33:04)<\/strong> Well, I have a website, chrisbache.com and the the book has now been published in German. It's just out recently in German. It's in French and Spanish. So if those are your native languages in Japanese and Czech. So that that's an opportunity. more. well first there I'm not the only author writing in psychedelic studies. You know, this is there are lots of good work there's lots of good publications coming forward. there are over three hundred medical schools and graduate schools doing research on psychedelics, and that was a the count as of a couple of years ago, so I'm sure it's expanding. So there's a lot of work being done. you can uncover a lot of work. and there's a lot of vital discussion taking place between r representatives of a physicalist paradigm and a consciousness saturated a living universe paradigm. It's just there's lots going on. If you want to have a discussion around my work, you can reach me through chrisbache.com and all of my articles are in an academic website called academia.edu And if you look at Christopher Bache there, you'll get a list of all the things that I've published that might be interesting to you.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:34:20)<\/strong> Hmm. Yeah, wonderful. Thank you very much. And I wanna also encourage everyone to there there's a value in in science. Also, Michael Pollan in his latest book, \"a world appears\". He starts out with the science and exploring the science, but where does he end? He ends up in the practice. In the end,<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:34:34)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:34:36)<\/strong> maybe it's not an intellectual question, it is actually a practice, it's an experience, and that's that's the answer. The consciousness is kind of the answer as a lived practice, right? you didn't mention \"the living classroom\". I think that's another book of yours. And if someone is a teacher and wants to learn about being becoming maybe more impactful as a teacher, the living classroom might also be a wonderful resource.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:35:00)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. In the background of that, very shortly, I was doing my deep psychedelic practice in private, keeping it secret from my students. But I found that my students began to be impacted by my so-called private practice. And they were being impacted so deeply and the the porosity of the membrane between my mind and their mind was becoming was changing so quickly that I I literally had to figure out what the hell was going on. I had to work with I had to teach myself a new way of teaching because conventional teaching is within an anatomistic Newtonian paradigm where all all of our minds are absolutely separate, which is true, obviously in certain ways, but I had to be develop a a quantum pedagogy which re began to undertake an understanding of integrating fields of consciousness that groups have fields associated with them and courses have fields associated with them. And you once you understand that. you naturally<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:35:58)<\/strong> Mm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:35:59)<\/strong> begin to work with these fields directly. And that's what<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:36:02)<\/strong> Mm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:36:03)<\/strong> the living classroom is about. And in<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:36:05)<\/strong> Yeah, I<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:36:06)<\/strong> in the latest edition, when I first wrote the book in 2008, I didn't mention psychedelics because we weren't ready to have that conversation. But now SUNY brought it out in a new edition, and there I was invited to tell the truth that the practices that I was doing in my private life were psychedelic practices. But psychedelics are not essential to the story. It's about the nature of consciousness. We find that consciousness is consciousness radiates out around us three hundred and sixty degrees. Consciousness is contagious. Consciousness experiences are contagious. And so it that has to do nothing with psychedelics, has to do just with the nature of consciousness itself.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:36:46)<\/strong> Yeah, no, I I I would totally agree at this. If you meet like a charismatic teacher you and that has an impact on you through his presence or her presence and the way he speaks, that his words have energy and a certain quality, then you you<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:36:58)<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:36:59)<\/strong> experience firsthand how that can have an impact. And you might be entranced by a person, right? Because it's so it pulls you so in so much. And I think what you write about speaks to that and also to this realization that There's something like a field. some people might more feel more comfortable with the idea of an atmosphere. Like there's an atmosphere in a space or a room. And you can have like atmospheric intelligence. And some people are open up to this idea of a field more when they when they think, okay, I can there's an atmospheric intelligence I can figure out. but it has to do, of course, something with a resonant perception and not just mental faculties. It's like a heart and fully embodied thing. And I I I can't claim that I had the same impact on my students. I'm teaching also at university. Maybe it's about because it's also about the topics. It's a business school, and so it's more communication and so on. And and you were teaching about spirituality and religion, right, and philosophy. So it's also closer a bit, and people they bring their life questions also, while while often they bring more prosaic questions in in a business school context. But I I'm working at it. I'm I'm curious too how this will unfold.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:38:07)<\/strong> Yeah. I think I think it is a function which is independent of content. The content of the curriculum is one thing, it's an aspect. But if a person lives and breathes the issues, if the if they have truly if these issues animate them and touches them deeply, then the energy that they bring to the transmission<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:38:26)<\/strong> Mm.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:38:29)<\/strong> of these experiences is contagious energy.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:38:32)<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:38:32)<\/strong> yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:38:33)<\/strong> No, yeah, I mean traditionally people would probably say the teacher is passionate about the subject or is inspired. And so then it infects the others in a positive way, this inspiration or passion, right? So yes. but I think there's even another dimension to it. And I think you yeah, and that that's what you point to. So if you're<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:38:47)<\/strong> There's another dimension to it. Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:38:51)<\/strong> curious about that people, you have to read the books and and we have to stop here. thank you very much, Christopher, for your generosity. your time, your openness. this is I mean it's very intimate to speak about these deep spiritual experiences, right? Or cosmic experiences. And it takes courage and and and dedication to to to open up about them in public. And so thank you very much for for for doing this for yeah.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:39:15)<\/strong> Well, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for bringing me to your audience and allowing me to speak to them through you. I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:39:25)<\/strong> Thank you. And let's continue the conversation one day. I<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:39:27)<\/strong> That sounds fine to me.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Kabakis (01:39:29)<\/strong> Wonderful. Thank you. Bye bye. Take care, Chris. Bye.<\/p>\n\n      <p><strong>Christopher Bache (01:39:31)<\/strong> Yeah. Much love. 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Over two decades, he conducted 73 high-dose LSD sessions under a rigorous protocol inspired by Stanislav Grof, exploring territories of consciousness that range from the collective and archetypal to the cosmological. His landmark work, LSD and the Mind of the Universe, presents a systematic philosophical account of those journeys and their implications for our understanding of consciousness, evolution, and the nature of reality. He holds a doctorate from Brown University and has dedicated his life to understanding what lies beyond the borders of ordinary human awareness.\n    <\/p>\n\n    <p class=\"evo-links-title\">Books, Talks &amp; Podcast Appearances<\/p>\n    <ul class=\"evo-appearances\">\n      <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/44321378-lsd-and-the-mind-of-the-universe\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">LSD and the Mind of the Universe by Christopher Bache<\/a><\/li>\n      <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/152440.Dark_Night_Early_Dawn\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Dark Night, Early Dawn by Christopher Bache<\/a><\/li>\n      <li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/3076419-the-living-classroom\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The Living Classroom by Christopher Bache (new edition, SUNY Press)<\/a><\/li>\n    <\/ul>\n\n  <\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-d2cbfcc e-flex e-con-boxed e-con e-parent\" data-id=\"d2cbfcc\" data-element_type=\"container\" data-e-type=\"container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"e-con-inner\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-b0501fc elementor-widget elementor-widget-html\" data-id=\"b0501fc\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-e-type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"html.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<!--\n\u2554\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2557\n\u2551  EPISODE PREV \/ NEXT NAVIGATION                                  \u2551\n\u2551  Category ID: 65 (same category the podcast hub page uses)       \u2551\n\u2551  Fully automatic: pulls all episodes in category 65 from the WP  \u2551\n\u2551  REST API, sorts by publish date, finds the CURRENT page by its  \u2551\n\u2551  URL, and links to the episode right before \/ right after it.    \u2551\n\u2551                                                                    \u2551\n\u2551  HOW TO USE: paste this exact block, unchanged, at the bottom of \u2551\n\u2551  every episode's HTML widget (after the guest card block).       \u2551\n\u2551  Never needs editing \u2014 when a new episode is published into      \u2551\n\u2551  category 65, every other episode's nav updates itself.          \u2551\n\u255a\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u2550\u255d\n-->\n\n<div class=\"evo-ep-nav\" id=\"evo-ep-nav\">\n<style>\n  @import url('https:\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css2?family=Montserrat:wght@200;300;400;600;700;800&display=swap');\n\n  .evo-ep-nav {\n    --teal: #114B4D;\n    --teal-deep: #0d3a3c;\n    --gold: #EBBF71;\n    --text-gray: #546e7a;\n    --text-muted: #6b7c7c;\n    --white: #FFFFFF;\n    font-family: 'Montserrat', sans-serif;\n    background: transparent;\n    max-width: 1000px;\n    margin: 0 auto;\n    padding: 20px 0 80px;\n    box-sizing: border-box;\n  }\n\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-grid {\n    display: grid;\n    grid-template-columns: 1fr 1fr;\n    gap: 24px;\n  }\n\n  \/* Fallback for the rare case where fewer than 2 neighbor episodes\n     exist at all (e.g. only 2 episodes published in total) \u2014 a single\n     card capped at normal card width instead of stretching full-width. *\/\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-grid.single {\n    grid-template-columns: 1fr;\n  }\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-grid.single .evo-nav-card {\n    max-width: 488px;\n    margin: 0 auto;\n  }\n\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-card {\n    background: var(--white);\n    border-radius: 4px;\n    box-shadow: 0 2px 20px rgba(17,75,77,0.06);\n    display: grid;\n    grid-template-columns: 110px 1fr;\n    overflow: hidden;\n    text-decoration: none;\n    position: relative;\n    transition: transform 0.4s cubic-bezier(0.19,1,0.22,1),\n                box-shadow 0.4s cubic-bezier(0.19,1,0.22,1);\n  }\n\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-card:hover {\n    transform: translateY(-3px);\n    box-shadow: 0 16px 48px rgba(17,75,77,0.12);\n  }\n\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-next {\n    grid-template-columns: 1fr 110px;\n    text-align: right;\n  }\n\n  .evo-ep-nav .evo-nav-next .evo-nav-img { order: 2; 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